I’m following along this discussion and decided to lay out my thoughts. Am only up to the discussion of fine tuning which I have been reading about for years. So I may add or change my thoughts as I listen more.
I believe it’s a lot simpler than it’s all made out to be.
1 - atheism is impossible because the only possibility for it to be true is infinite regress and infinite regress leads to logical absurdities. So far the other possibility offered is creation out of nothing and this just expanded the creation further to quantum fields and “nothing” is really not nothing.
Nearly every argument I have seen in defense of atheism is in reality an attack on Christianity. This is an obviously non logical approach and reflects the source of these arguments, people in the Christian West. Several people really don't like Christianity and spend their time finding shortcomings in it. They then use their findings, often specious, to denounce a creator. The ironic thing about this is the use of bad logic by life time and well acclaimed intellectuals to support their erroneous beliefs.
The site Closer To Truth has section on atheists defending their belief. None are logically coherent and yet all are acclaimed intellectuals. That seems to be the odd finding from this process of trying to find a coherent belief in atheism. All to a person are incredibly illogical and commit numerous logical fallacies.
2 - this leaves the only explanation as a self existence entity which must be powerful and highly intelligent which started the dominoes falling (thereafter it’s PSR) Why couldn’t the early dominoes be part of the quantum field or some other reality?
2a - at a very minimum this self existent entity could be a deist. Avoids all issues of an imperfect existence (evil etc) and forces the argument into the nature of this entity. Atheism is then a non sequitur and atheists cannot use a so called non perfect universe as a rationale against a creator.
3 - fine tuning indicates this self existent entity created a very specific existence with specific objectives which does away with a deist only explanation. Forces one to consider the nature of the entity and why our existence.
4 - self existence forces the entity to be simple and unchanging and exist outside of time. Other characteristics are also highly likely.
5 - we can then call this entity, “God.”
All have to be fleshed out but all explanations should be simple and obvious to anyone with an 8th grade education.
We are then partway there. The next step for me as a Christian is that Jesus is God or at the very minimum was sent by God. (Now using upper case God to describe the self existent entity.) So the next step is the Trinity and establishing the Bible and other things as revelation.
The final step is showing Jesus, Who is God, started a Church.
Nothing will be QED because there must be doubt. The evidence can be overwhelming but doubt is a necessity for a meaningful world.
Aside: since our existence was created by a God Who is all powerful and all knowing, how could this world not be “The Best of all Possible Worlds” or perfect for God’s objectives. So our focus should not be on why elements of this world appear non optimal but are in reality “perfect.” My own hypothesis is that we live in a world of trade offs and that to change anything to make the world better will in fact make it inferior for God’s objectives.
Always willing to hear any criticism of the above comments.
I’m following along this discussion and decided to lay out my thoughts. Am only up to the discussion of fine tuning which I have been reading about for years. So I may add or change my thoughts as I listen more.
I believe it’s a lot simpler than it’s all made out to be.
1 - atheism is impossible because the only possibility for it to be true is infinite regress and infinite regress leads to logical absurdities. So far the other possibility offered is creation out of nothing and this just expanded the creation further to quantum fields and “nothing” is really not nothing.
Nearly every argument I have seen in defense of atheism is in reality an attack on Christianity. This is an obviously non logical approach and reflects the source of these arguments, people in the Christian West. Several people really don't like Christianity and spend their time finding shortcomings in it. They then use their findings, often specious, to denounce a creator. The ironic thing about this is the use of bad logic by life time and well acclaimed intellectuals to support their erroneous beliefs.
The site Closer To Truth has section on atheists defending their belief. None are logically coherent and yet all are acclaimed intellectuals. That seems to be the odd finding from this process of trying to find a coherent belief in atheism. All to a person are incredibly illogical and commit numerous logical fallacies.
2 - this leaves the only explanation as a self existence entity which must be powerful and highly intelligent which started the dominoes falling (thereafter it’s PSR) Why couldn’t the early dominoes be part of the quantum field or some other reality?
2a - at a very minimum this self existent entity could be a deist. Avoids all issues of an imperfect existence (evil etc) and forces the argument into the nature of this entity. Atheism is then a non sequitur and atheists cannot use a so called non perfect universe as a rationale against a creator.
3 - fine tuning indicates this self existent entity created a very specific existence with specific objectives which does away with a deist only explanation. Forces one to consider the nature of the entity and why our existence.
4 - self existence forces the entity to be simple and unchanging and exist outside of time. Other characteristics are also highly likely.
5 - we can then call this entity, “God.”
All have to be fleshed out but all explanations should be simple and obvious to anyone with an 8th grade education.
We are then partway there. The next step for me as a Christian is that Jesus is God or at the very minimum was sent by God. (Now using upper case God to describe the self existent entity.) So the next step is the Trinity and establishing the Bible and other things as revelation.
The final step is showing Jesus, Who is God, started a Church.
Nothing will be QED because there must be doubt. The evidence can be overwhelming but doubt is a necessity for a meaningful world.
Aside: since our existence was created by a God Who is all powerful and all knowing, how could this world not be “The Best of all Possible Worlds” or perfect for God’s objectives. So our focus should not be on why elements of this world appear non optimal but are in reality “perfect.” My own hypothesis is that we live in a world of trade offs and that to change anything to make the world better will in fact make it inferior for God’s objectives.
Always willing to hear any criticism of the above comments.